unpopular fannish opinion

[scarfman]

When the Doctor told Sarah Jane in School Reunion that he'd regenerated "half a dozen times" since they'd last met, he was using an idiom that doesn't always mean "precisely six". It does not mean that The Five Doctors never happened, and it does not mean that there can't have been incarnations we don't know about between the Eye of Harmony thing and the London Eye thing.

Even if the Doctor did mean "precisely six", that doesn't mean The Five Doctors never happened. It was obvious then that Sarah Jane didn't realize Doctor Five was the Doctor. He probably thinks she never figured it out (though he's probably wrong).

If there were two incarnations between the Eyes, it'd mean Pete's Doctor probably is the Valeyard.

Comments

[liannanshith.livejournal.com]

I could always rationalize that issue similar in vein to what was referenced (and rather hand-wavey) in that very episode, regarding Jamie and Zoe; The Timelords erased many of the memories of the non-5th Doctor's timestream and associated companions. In effort to prevent paradoxes due to information existing beyond those events and whatnot.

[liannanshith.livejournal.com]

But that's just an issue with attempting to maintain some notion of canon.

[liannanshith.livejournal.com]

Now I feel like writing some fanfic with the Haitian from Heroes going through and wiping their memories one-by-one.

[garpu.livejournal.com]

Hrm...i thought people had speculated that the Time Lords probably wiped memories of non-Time Lords involved in it?

[scarfman]

Because of the "half a dozen times" line from School Reunion. There's no other evidence to suggest that was done, that I'm aware of.

[verlaine.livejournal.com]

I still reckon you can solve many continuity problems by positing that the Masters we've seen on the show... are other incarnations of the Doctor, possibly from later on in his timestream, but also possibly not.

[kiri-l.livejournal.com]

do you mean 5? *confused? cause I can't see celeryboy being the valeyard.

[scarfman]

By "Pete's Doctor" I mean the Doctor in Pete's World.

[diabolicalfiend.livejournal.com]

I thought that at first too!

[steamage.livejournal.com]

It makes sense to me. Where I come from, "half a dozen" can just be a loose measurement referring to some number more or less between 4 and 9. (I'm an American, though- any Britishers know if it's the same there?)

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Half a dozen doesn't always mean 6 here either - it depends on the context - and you wouldn't necessarily know whether someone was being precise unless you asked... But when we say half a dozen, we mean anywhere from 5 - 7, not 4 - 9!

[chocolatescifi.livejournal.com]

Which Doctor said this to Sarah Jane? He could have meant "since you last regularly traveled with me," meaning Doctor Four.

[scarfman]

It was Doctor Ten in School Reunion.

[chocolatescifi.livejournal.com]

So if he did mean what I suggested, that would have been a half dozen regenerations.

[studyofrunning.livejournal.com]

Exact quote from transcript, if it helps:

Sarah: [...] You've regenerated.
Ten: Half a dozen times since we last met.

[c-carol.livejournal.com]

Why's this an "unpopular opinion" when it's obviously true?

Also, even if Sarah Jane figured out that Five was the Doctor, she'd have no way of knowing that he was _Five_, would she?

I don't for a second believe that Handy is the Valeyard, but I have to admit that the idea tickles me.

[scarfman]

Why's this an "unpopular opinion" when it's obviously true?

It must be because I've never seen anyone but me differ with those who argue that "half a dozen times" means "six times".

[blinovitch.livejournal.com]

I'd say I was astonished anyone would argue "half a dozen" means six precisely, but that's the same kind of thinking Lance Parkin used in his History of the Universe chronology that annoyed me.

[shadowturquoise.livejournal.com]

I don't for a second believe that Handy is the Valeyard, but I have to admit that the idea tickles me.

It tickles me too. I doubt they will ever do that on screen, but I'd love it simply because they would be reaching back into Classic Who and moving forward with unfinished business. I love continuity arcs like that.

[shadowturquoise.livejournal.com]

That has always been my opinion. I just never bothered to voice it on Outpost or Base because that bunch are so incredibly rude that it would have only gotten me a pack of insults. Ten says "half a dozen time" in such a flip, off-handed way that it's obvious that he just means it as an expression.

[rude-not-ginger.livejournal.com]

I'm with you all the way until the last sentence. Then, you've lost me.

How does the fact that he's regenerated half a dozen times mean that a human, half-Doctor that comes from his tenth regeneration is actually the full Time Lord split between his twelfth and thirteenth incarnations?

[scarfman]

"Probably" was a bit strong. But my point is, if there were two incarnations between the Eyes then Pete's Doctor isn't from the tenth incarnation, he's from the twelfth. And remember, the only source we have for the Valeyard's origins is the Master, who could easily have been telling half-truths, even though the Valeyard didn't argue with him any. And really, under the circumstances, would you have stopped to explain, "That's a lie! I'm a Time Lord-human metacrisis, not a 'distillation'!"

[rude-not-ginger.livejournal.com]

Define "Between the Eyes" because I don't actually understand what you mean.

I suppose, but I don't think the Master would've lied about that. He despised the Valeyard, and if he were a half-human it would've been the ideal time to mock/etc.

[scarfman]

When I say "between the Eyes" I'm referring back to the first paragraph of the post, when I say "the Eye of Harmony thing and the London Eye thing". I'm referring to the period of time between Season 1996 and Season 2005.

[jmatonak.livejournal.com]

I don't think the line is strong enough to end all debate on the issue (as if anything could), but taken together with the inventories in Human Nature and other places, it suggests the incarnation played by Tennant is the Tenth.

[platypus]

I don't really believe there's a significant chance of any Doctors between McGann and Eccleston; why blow regenerations offscreen? All the meta indicates that RTD considered his Doctors the ninth and tenth, and within the show there's the occasional reference like Human Nature and The Next Doctor that nods to the other eight.

However, I don't think the School Reunion line means 'definitely exactly six,' either. "Oh, half a dozen" sounds like an off-the-cuff estimate. He's not going to stop mid-sentence and count on his fingers to be sure. I might say I've been with my husband for a decade; I'd have to stop and think about dates to tell you if it's really exactly ten, but such precision is rarely the point of such statements. I didn't get the feeling it was in School Reunion. Six regenerations since she regularly traveled with him, five since a short meeting she may or may not recall -- they're both within the ballpark.